Ink not setting consistently and causing bleeding

Hayesmac · 13 Sep 2020

Hey y’all!
just now jumping into tattooing for the first time. Unfortunately, I’m not set up at a shop due to Covid and due to the lack of good shops that I would want to learn from in my city. I’ve been using a cheap amazon kit and working on fruit and stuff. After a few months I’m now working on skin. I’ve got a pretty decent set up now though. I’m using a DanSelfMade liner with a 3rl and a 5rl with Dynamic ink. Here’s the issue.

I started a piece on my spouse the other day. I was doing my line work and for the life of me I could not get the ink to set into the skin properly. It didn’t matter the voltage I set it at or even how deep I went. Finally after a couple of passes and going further in than I feel like I needed to I was able to mostly get something on their skin for the outline. That turned out not to bad but the whole experience took way too long and was way too sketchy/ just not smooth.

After some healing I went in and tried adding to the piece. Using a 3rl this time I still had the same issue if not worse. Faint lines were going in and for the majority of the lines they began to bleed and swell. Again didn’t matter what I did this continued to happen. I clearly stopped and wanted to reassess exactly what was happening.

So what is going on??? Is it tuning thing? Am I not doing something correctly? Thanks for any help you can give.

TexasPT · 13 Sep 2020

Lines take stretching...speed...depth. They all have to work together harmoniously to create lines. You may have done her a favor not able to get lines into her...sounds like you need more practice.

Hayesmac · 13 Sep 2020

TexasPT said:
Lines take stretching...speed...depth. They all have to work together harmoniously to create lines. You may have done her a favor not able to get lines into her...sounds like you need more practice.

I understand all of that. I was able to put lines in previously and have with another machine pretty well. This go around just was strange. Not too many pointers in that comment though. Thanks for that.

Joonited · 13 Sep 2020

I had a similar problem with the ink not going in and in my case it was the ink flow and didn't stretched enough.... make sure there's enough ink coming out. Maybe try not hanging out the needle of the tip too far... or take a bigger tip. If you use 3rl needle take a 5rl tip.... just try different things. If the ink flow is not enough you tend to push harder or go up with the voltage but that's not solving the problem...and that's maybe why it started bleeding. Then also check if your lining ink is not too thick... I tried lining with a normal color blue and it didn't worked cause the ink was too think, had to dilute it to make it work. Also I had different results with different needle brands. You really wanna use a high quality needle. The best for the price (standard needles) I find are "Eikon Hydra" or go for a bit pricier "Tatsoul Envy" (there sure are other good needle brands but these ones I know and tried)
Hope that helped a bit

I can't give professional advice... I'm not a pro artist... but I'm going through the same learning process

Chustik · 13 Sep 2020

if volts aren't the problem, and neither is depth, you have speed and stretch left. as said before inkflow could be a problem too.

Fruit is really deceptive for being soft and taking ink really well. If you can get some fake skin i would recommend that.

TexasPT · 13 Sep 2020

Hayesmac said:
I understand all of that. I was able to put lines in previously and have with another machine pretty well. This go around just was strange. Not too many pointers in that comment though. Thanks for that.

really feel like there were a LOT of pointers. Just not the way you wanted to hear them I suppose. But I gave you exactly what you needed. stretch speed and depth...that's all there is. If you are doing traditional Polynesian that list goes to stretch and depth.

every part of the body is different. Some are very easy to line and you can falter a bit on any of these. some, like a chest, inside of the arm, stomach...those take a very conscious effort not only with stretching but also matching the speed of the hand to the machine to compensate for the additional bounce.

if you line a forearm like you line a foot like you line a stomach like you line behind the ear you're going to fuck up 3 of them if you don't adjust your technique. maybe you need to stretch more...or go less deep...or turn up volts...but the elements remain constant.

but when it's all said and done

1. did I stretch the skin enough? No? Stretch more. Yes...go to#2
2. did I match my hand speed to the machine speed? No? adjust (If you don't know how...you need to practice more). Yes...go to #3.
3. Was my depth correct? Yes? Your line should be fine. If it's not...you're lying to yourself about one or two.

we've all been there...but reps is where it's at. everything is different and it just takes reps. thick skin, thin skin, old skin, young skin, stretch skin, tight skin, dark skin, light skin...so many variables.

Oh...and based on your first post you need to stretch more.

was that better?

Raskal 1220 · 13 Sep 2020

Just my .02 worth.....In my opinion needles don’t really play a big part of it unless they’re just all kinds of screwed up, if you’re using traditional needles that is. Stretch is very important no question about it, especially when it comes to to those areas that are my “flabby”. Are you putting to much Vaseline on your stencil when you’re tattooing? Other than not stretching enough, depending on the area, I’d assume another issue would be putting too much Vaseline on the stencil while you’re tattooing.

Hayesmac · 13 Sep 2020

Raskal 1220 said:
Just my .02 worth.....In my opinion needles don’t really play a big part of it unless they’re just all kinds of screwed up, if you’re using traditional needles that is. Stretch is very important no question about it, especially when it comes to to those areas that are my “flabby”. Are you putting to much Vaseline on your stencil when you’re tattooing? Other than not stretching enough, depending on the area, I’d assume another issue would be putting too much Vaseline on the stencil while you’re tattooing.

Not really. Super careful about adding a thin layer of vaseline. Even tried a couple of small lines with no vaseline. Also, I feel like I'm stretching pretty well. The tattoo is on the front of the thigh which is pretty tight as is but I'm also stretching on top of that.

Hayesmac · 13 Sep 2020

TexasPT said:
really feel like there were a LOT of pointers. Just not the way you wanted to hear them I suppose. But I gave you exactly what you needed. stretch speed and depth...that's all there is. If you are doing traditional Polynesian that list goes to stretch and depth.

every part of the body is different. Some are very easy to line and you can falter a bit on any of these. some, like a chest, inside of the arm, stomach...those take a very conscious effort not only with stretching but also matching the speed of the hand to the machine to compensate for the additional bounce.

if you line a forearm like you line a foot like you line a stomach like you line behind the ear you're going to fuck up 3 of them if you don't adjust your technique. maybe you need to stretch more...or go less deep...or turn up volts...but the elements remain constant.

but when it's all said and done

1. did I stretch the skin enough? No? Stretch more. Yes...go to#2
2. did I match my hand speed to the machine speed? No? adjust (If you don't know how...you need to practice more). Yes...go to #3.
3. Was my depth correct? Yes? Your line should be fine. If it's not...you're lying to yourself about one or two.

we've all been there...but reps is where it's at. everything is different and it just takes reps. thick skin, thin skin, old skin, young skin, stretch skin, tight skin, dark skin, light skin...so many variables.

Oh...and based on your first post you need to stretch more.

was that better?

Actually yeah. This was a lot better. Your first comment was a bit condescending and really just not helpful. But I do appreciate your input and detailed advice on this one.

I can limit the stretch issue. I'll work on the next points on some fake skin, see what happens and get back to you. Thanks.

Hayesmac · 13 Sep 2020

Chustik said:
if volts aren't the problem, and neither is depth, you have speed and stretch left. as said before inkflow could be a problem too.

Fruit is really deceptive for being soft and taking ink really well. If you can get some fake skin i would recommend that.

I'll definitely work on the speed part as I feel pretty good that I'm stretching appropriately. It might be an inflow thing though. I'll play with that.

Hayesmac · 13 Sep 2020

Joonited said:
I had a similar problem with the ink not going in and in my case it was the ink flow and didn't stretched enough.... make sure there's enough ink coming out. Maybe try not hanging out the needle of the tip too far... or take a bigger tip. If you use 3rl needle take a 5rl tip.... just try different things. If the ink flow is not enough you tend to push harder or go up with the voltage but that's not solving the problem...and that's maybe why it started bleeding. Then also check if your lining ink is not too thick... I tried lining with a normal color blue and it didn't worked cause the ink was too think, had to dilute it to make it work. Also I had different results with different needle brands. You really wanna use a high quality needle. The best for the price (standard needles) I find are "Eikon Hydra" or go for a bit pricier "Tatsoul Envy" (there sure are other good needle brands but these ones I know and tried)
Hope that helped a bit I can't give professional advice... I'm not a pro artist... but I'm going through the same learning process

Thanks for the tips! I'm using Envy needles so I feel solid about that.
I was able to put in the outline of the design with a 5rl after some work. I just would love to have a bit of a thinner line for some detail work. I'll play with the advice you gave!

TexasPT · 14 Sep 2020

Envy needles are great.

I tattooed a chest the other day and I stretched...and got faded little gray lines.
so I stretched some more...and they were not much better.

so I anchored his chest with the heel of my tattooing hand and pulled the skin the other way towards his face...then pulled the lines towards me. I got my lines.

stretch really is one of the most under-utilized tools for clean lines. I understand this more and more each day.

P$ Productions · 16 Sep 2020

One thing that I learned the hard way was that after a long time of tattooing (or taking a break etc,) your needle might be gunked up with glide/ink/blood/etc. Make sure you're regularly rinsing, even if you don't change colors.

Seems like a no brainer, right? But man I was so frustrated when i couldnt figure it out.

TexasPT · 16 Sep 2020

I have never had a gunked up needle...like NEVER. What are you guys putting on the skin????

P$ Productions · 16 Sep 2020

TexasPT said:
I have never had a gunked up needle...like NEVER. What are you guys putting on the skin????

Oh god i was so scared of your response lol!
Idk!! I was using a thin coat of hustle butter and BLAK ink. But i had been working for 10 hours with the same needle and the girl took 2 1hr breaks to eat. I wrapped up my station during that time but maybe should've grabbed another needle?? ?

TexasPT · 16 Sep 2020

P$ Productions said:
Oh god i was so scared of your response lol!
Idk!! I was using a thin coat of hustle butter and BLAK ink. But i had been working for 10 hours with the same needle and the girl took 2 1hr breaks to eat. I wrapped up my station during that time but maybe should've grabbed another needle?? ?

did you get part of a papertowel stuck in it? I could see that happening maybe...

I'm going to run a needle in a pile of A&D for five minutes tomorrow and see if it slows the machine down.

P$ Productions · 16 Sep 2020

But make sure you leave it to sit with ink and A&D for an hour or two. ?

Revenge · 19 Sep 2020

One way you can try and see how/practice your stretch, is to gear up, like your going to tattoo. Gloves, etc. Stencil. (If your gonna practice one thing, practice the rest too. =) )

Now try and line that stencil with a ball point pen. If your hand is too fast, you'll get a shit line. If its too slow, the ink will bleed a bit in the skin (not always, depends on the pen, bit its a fun experiment. You can alternatively do this further with a calligraphy tip rigged into a tube with the appropriate degree. Makes you learn how important it is to keep your machine in line with the skin to prevent twisting your needle and getting weird lines.)

but the main thing here, is if your stretch is not good in any area the pen will effectively bounce against the skin rather than create a line.

So instead of looking like this:
____________
It looks like this:
__..... . . . . . .

On a side note, many things can add up to become the situation you described. Swelling and bleeding to me indicates your doing something wrong. I find that if depth is deeper than it should be, the skin will well blood, this is one of your first indicators.

Alternatively, if the client is stressed out/has reached a particular pain threshold, their body will let you know as well. (If we eliminate ibuprofen, caffeine, etc)

With every experiance, checkin on them, get their feedback. How does your tattoo feel? Is it a stingy pain? A deep pain? Do they have tattoos by other people? How does your hand feel compared to theirs? Is it heavy? Is it firm? Is it light? This will help you relate and identify issues or how certain issues feel to your clients.

When you feel like your ready to go again, try tattooing a place annoying on yourself. We all have different body types, so try and choose a place with a little more fat and stretch. For example any inner thigh location will have a higher chance of giving you the same issues if your stretch is not there.

Hope this gives you some new ideas to diagnose! Good luck!

Hayesmac · 19 Sep 2020

Revenge said:
One way you can try and see how/practice your stretch, is to gear up, like your going to tattoo. Gloves, etc. Stencil. (If your gonna practice one thing, practice the rest too. =) )

Now try and line that stencil with a ball point pen. If your hand is too fast, you'll get a shit line. If its too slow, the ink will bleed a bit in the skin (not always, depends on the pen, bit its a fun experiment. You can alternatively do this further with a calligraphy tip rigged into a tube with the appropriate degree. Makes you learn how important it is to keep your machine in line with the skin to prevent twisting your needle and getting weird lines.)

but the main thing here, is if your stretch is not good in any area the pen will effectively bounce against the skin rather than create a line.

So instead of looking like this:
____________
It looks like this:
__..... . . . . . .

On a side note, many things can add up to become the situation you described. Swelling and bleeding to me indicates your doing something wrong. I find that if depth is deeper than it should be, the skin will well blood, this is one of your first indicators.

Alternatively, if the client is stressed out/has reached a particular pain threshold, their body will let you know as well. (If we eliminate ibuprofen, caffeine, etc)

With every experiance, checkin on them, get their feedback. How does your tattoo feel? Is it a stingy pain? A deep pain? Do they have tattoos by other people? How does your hand feel compared to theirs? Is it heavy? Is it firm? Is it light? This will help you relate and identify issues or how certain issues feel to your clients.

When you feel like your ready to go again, try tattooing a place annoying on yourself. We all have different body types, so try and choose a place with a little more fat and stretch. For example any inner thigh location will have a higher chance of giving you the same issues if your stretch is not there.

Hope this gives you some new ideas to diagnose! Good luck!

Great advice! Thanks!
It's super weird. I have done a couple of pieces on skin (my own and my spouse) and i didn't have this issue at all. The moment i tried this new machine I'm having the issue of ink coming through. It might be an ink flow issue or a tuning issue. Very easily could be a me thing. I'm sure everyone likes to blame the machine haha

envy6454 · 29 Nov 2022

Ohh i see now. I had thigh problems. Did that one of my first dozen and the 11 before went great. Even did this super thin script on my husbands hands and nothing fell out.. i did my own make up... Eyes and lips... My fingers, with detail that people don't mess with, perfectly. I did my wedding band on my dominant hand so i tattooed strange (lol)...and my face... Btw, i use no stencils. So thigh is no problem? What else can someone do thats harder then what i already mentioned? The front of that darn thigh. What a crap area that is. I have 3 now and hated doing every one. They bleed... A lot. They dont take or hold ink well, at all... Idk what up with that skin but maybe the way girls carry fat there or how we shave that part, only pt... It doesn't see the sun alot but pants and shit are always rubbing it. Its like the most tough of delicate spots and thick, too. So my solution i found on Reddit. Someone basically said to hulk out your usual stretch. I mean like you want to pull it apart. So whatever technique of 3 point ur doing...4 point it...get a buddy to add a few more points. Wipe a lot and some ink might still come out. I also slowed my machine down because i really wanted to slowly do more passes. I used a small mag ...i forget but it barely looks like one ...so the first one of all them. I didnt ink too much because i hate the first push after you dip in ink it's like a useless pass with so much happening and i also hung my needle out more but too much at first so it is a ton of troubleshooting

envy6454 · 29 Nov 2022

TexasPT said:
I have never had a gunked up needle...like NEVER. What are you guys putting on the skin????

I have a skin condition that crusts blood fast so i gunk them all the time. Its called dermagraphism. Basically, anything that rubs my skin makes welts so i gunk, push out ink and swell. I think dry skin can do that too because no amount of anything is gonna hydrate someone enough to not have a problem when starting that bad. My brother in law has thin, dry so i get caught up sometimes on it and with my own, being chunky with girl skin, and dry, and have a condition... Plus i may be allergic to ink but its hard to tell w my condition... So it does happen but probably only with weird, rare skin crap

Big Pete · 29 Nov 2022

I have found it difficult getting ink in sometimes when using smaller needle groupings, I've found that changing the angle the needle penetrates helps. Also when stretching, make sure you are stretching in the right direction,,,stretch with the line, not across the line.

envy6454 · 24 Mar 2023

Big Pete said:
I have found it difficult getting ink in sometimes when using smaller needle groupings, I've found that changing the angle the needle penetrates helps. Also when stretching, make sure you are stretching in the right direction,,,stretch with the line, not across the line.

Yes me too but it depends on the part of the body and the person... U know, i hated those general answers when i was learning. I know everyone says the same few things and no one has an exact answer but i understand why, now after testing it all out with different depths, machine speeds and hand... Push verse pulling and even how full a cartridge it.. or when i thought i was stretching but wasnt... . When you read around and people tell u exact numbers, then u really see how different it is. I see people say "i run my machine slower for color.. Like 8". Im like "8 is slow? Thats too fast" and then others will be like "i run it higer for lines so like 6. ". 6 is high? . Sozzzz. Z i get how it feels like u cant get a straight answer when ur trying to learn and feel u need one. But if someone told me "start slow .. run it at 8" , i would have done nothing but made hamburger meat. And thats why answers have to be vague. Its just the kind of thing that cant take a straight line from A to B... Its kind of like "can u do a one line pass? Then does it stay after it peels? Then u got it down!"

whippet · 24 Mar 2023

envy6454 said:
Yes me too but it depends on the part of the body and the person... U know, i hated those general answers when i was learning. I know everyone says the same few things and no one has an exact answer but i understand why, now after testing it all out with different depths, machine speeds and hand... Push verse pulling and even how full a cartridge it.. or when i thought i was stretching but wasnt... . When you read around and people tell u exact numbers, then u really see how different it is. I see people say "i run my machine slower for color.. Like 8". Im like "8 is slow? Thats too fast" and then others will be like "i run it higer for lines so like 6. ". 6 is high? . Sozzzz. Z i get how it feels like u cant get a straight answer when ur trying to learn and feel u need one. But if someone told me "start slow .. run it at 8" , i would have done nothing but made hamburger meat. And thats why answers have to be vague. Its just the kind of thing that cant take a straight line from A to B... Its kind of like "can u do a one line pass? Then does it stay after it peels? Then u got it down!"

It’s pointless talking in voltages…understand machine speed in Hz (aka CPS), then other people’s advice may make more sense. We are seeing more machines coming to market with Hz displays replacing volts…and about time too.

envy6454 · 15 Aug 2023

whippet said:
It’s pointless talking in voltages…understand machine speed in Hz (aka CPS), then other people’s advice may make more sense. We are seeing more machines coming to market with Hz displays replacing volts…and about time too.

Ohh is that what's happening? Everyone refers to it as voltage and i was like "none of that works for me" but i had enough common sense to find my own middle speed. But the point im making still holds true... Starting out, you want exact answers and its annoying when no one is giving them to you directly. U feel like your hearing a lot of talking but learning nothing. I remember skipping from around from artists I knew and video tutorials but it wasnt long until i understood why you can't get "answers"... I mean you can with techniques like shading and those things but a straight "how to guide" doesnt exist. If you cant become someones hand or set their machine, you can only really say "have a go at it!" and its a scary thing to just do. Especially when fake skin is nothing like real, and fruit is wonky.... I went to my own skin before I got to pig skin and not for any peta type reason besides that stuff makes me feel icky but i have heard that it's the better practice option. But costly.

Ink not setting consistently and causing bleeding

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