Needing advice on first machine!

I’m interested in learning how to tattoo, but I have never used a machine before and need some help deciding on one. I just want something affordable to learn on fake skins with, I am considering the Mast Archer or CNC Q2. I saw someone recommend learning with a cheaper amazon kit, but I have also seen others say those are harder to learn with. If anyone has any other advice for someone looking to learn, I would really appreciate that too!

The thing is not the machine but the technique.
Giving it a try with a cheap machine is only a way to make sure you're not going to blow 500$ for something which may not fit you: actually tattoing.
If you can afford it, try to start with a machine (or two) which match with the techniques used to the style you dig.

Peace,

DKJ

Buy something from Amazon or Ebay, you're not trying to be an amazing tattooist from the get go. You just need to start learning the basics and you don't know if you will even continue with tattooing so don't spend a lot to start with.
Tattoo pens are so much easier to use, and some of the cheaper ones will do the same job as a more expensive one, upgrade as you progress and learn.

Both of these tattoo machines are quite good to get started, but they are quite expensive. Instead, you should start with a coil tattoo machine that is cheaper in price, such as the Stigma Complete Kit or the ATOMUS Coil Tattoo Machine.

florajones said:

Both of these tattoo machines are quite good to get started, but they are quite expensive. Instead, you should start with a coil tattoo machine that is cheaper in price, such as the Stigma Complete Kit or the ATOMUS Coil Tattoo Machine.

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I think we have to be careful staying this, as worldwide user data tells us the VAST MAJORITY of pro tattooers DO NOT use coil machines any longer….and there are good reasons. I hear old timers (like me) spouting stuff like ‘You gotta learn on coils like our predecessors did, its’s the ritual blah blah….’. Not so many car drivers saying we should use a horse and carriage to understand how to drive a car.

But seriously, coils are great when running well and when the tattooist knows how to tune them properly, and most don’t; nor do they have any idea of the Hz they are running at (coils speed is not controlled by volts like rotaries).

Most modern tattooers will start with rotaries and (unless a new thing emerges in the industry) work professionally with Rotaries. They are consistent day in day out, need no tuning, can be accurately speed (Hz) calibrated, can use carts (most do), and way less vibration with vastly reduced risk of long term nerve damage.

Coils on the other hand, add a whole other level of learning (which I admit can be challenging and fun) BUT if you’re sole objective is to learn to become a proficient professional tattooer, they are just a distraction. I’d say it would be hard enough to learn on coils with a knowledgable mentor, if you’re going alone, beware.

I’m not anti coil machine, just pragmatic as a professional educator.

For fun, these are the machines I bought and used before switching to pen machines (Axys Valhalla, Spektra Xion, Bishop Wand Packer & Shader, Plus some cheap clone pen styles that in some cases (xnet in particular) work quite well). I had other coil machines back in the 80s but sadly none have lasted or got lost along the way. One was a weird single coil machine that actually performed pretty well for many years.

whippet and why would one choose a pen style machine Vs a 'standard" machine ?

Never tried any pen machine, are they easier to hold?

Peace,

DKJ

DKJ said:

whippet and why would one choose a pen style machine Vs a 'standard" machine ?

Never tried any pen machine, are they easier to hold?

Peace,

DKJ

Click to expand...

Fair question:

Simplicity of carts directly inserted into machines against push rods and separate grips. While this is of course my opinion and preference, the evolution of tattoo machines (and sales) suggests others feel the same way too.

If you tattoo wireless, pen machines seem to accommodate either on board (built in) or connected battery solutions better, standard rotaries can become back heavy with batteries.

Pen-style Bodies also provide the closest balanced object to what most of us Learnt to draw with, a pen or pencil, notwithstanding a huge weight difference, the balance is similar.

Keeping pen style machines sterile is the downside of this choice, though a good studio with an autoclave would solve this, similar to coil and standard rotary tubes. In fairness, I always used disposable tubes with my standard rotaries.

As I’ve stated before I’ve transitioned through all main types of machine (coil, non-pen rotary (or standard rotaries) and pen-style rotaries). I love messing around with machines and trying things out, I have a pretty big coil machine maintenance kit and I still, from time to time at least, set up my coils and have a dabble on fake skin, retuning, detuning, expeimenting with spring gauges etc.

But when it comes down to the nuts and bolts of being a professional tattooer and earning your living, the pen machines are just so much easier and you can focus on your tattooing rather than your tattooing equipment.

If you’re starting out and never used a tattoo machine before, I’d say go for the type in the ascendency in the industry to avoid ‘needing’ to learn something else later.

yaniraxoxo said:

I’m interested in learning how to tattoo, but I have never used a machine before and need some help deciding on one. I just want something affordable to learn on fake skins with, I am considering the Mast Archer or CNC Q2. I saw someone recommend learning with a cheaper amazon kit, but I have also seen others say those are harder to learn with. If anyone has any other advice for someone looking to learn, I would really appreciate that too!

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Here's a nice pen kit (just click the link) to get started with Stigma wireless pen kit
It has basically everything you need to go ahead. Rotary pen, rechargeable battery with usb cable, ink, carts and a power cable in case you don't want to use the battery.
Stigma is decent quality to start with and the great thing about this kit is you get the "standard" RCA interface which makes upgrading and expanding your equipment a breeze.
The current offers goes for $90 and you can even add stencil paper and a box of various sized carts to it which will cost you only $124 total.

I do agree with all previous comments, but must add that if you start with a battery you even won't have to bother with cable and stuff, makes life much easier. I've switched to using batteries when I saw a very professional artist using batteries with a great freedom of movement.
Using a pen is like driving a car with an automatic gearbox. You don't have to worry too much about the mechanics. A coil machine will give you full power and total control, just like a manual gearbox, but you need to know how to use that.

DKJ said:

whippet and why would one choose a pen style machine Vs a 'standard" machine ?

Never tried any pen machine, are they easier to hold?

Peace,

DKJ

Click to expand...

This is my CNC Q2 with a Rocket battery, weighs only 6.2 oz (175 gr) and has total length of just 6" (15.2 cm) without the cart.
The battery weighs only 2 oz, so the overall balance is perfect, nothing top down.
Btw. I also have an even shorter pen ("bomb" type) which makes the balance even better but most of the time I use the Q2 because it's just a great pen to work with.

Gives you a freedom you won't believe until you try it, which you should as today's prices are certainly no impediment.
I normally use two or three machines setup differently (lining, shading, color fill) with inclined stands where you can leave the machine while working. As the machines are pointing downwards, the ink stays at the tip of the cart which makes switching machines super easy.
I also have a spare battery in case I run out of juice.

And one last question : i'm not very secure with wireless batteries, are they consistent?
Like when they're almost out of juice, will they become randomly acting?
whippet MirandM

Peace,

DKJ

DKJ said:

And one last question : i'm not very secure with wireless batteries, are they consistent?
Like when they're almost out of juice, will they become randomly acting?
whippet MirandM

Peace,

DKJ

Click to expand...

Here are some photos of the batteries I mainly use.


first display shows the voltage. This is adjustable with 0.1 V steps with the arrow buttons


second display shows the available charge, 98%


third display shows the working time left, in this case 2 hours because I haven't used or charged this battery in quite some time, it normally shows 4-5 hours directly after full charge.
With using voltages below 8V (I normally use 7-7.6V) they can last up to 10 hours.
Personally I never look at this as it's only an approximation which highly depends on usage. I prefer to look at the second display because the % is much more precise.

These batteries are quite awesome, aluminum housing, 5-12V, have jumpstart, 2000mAh, usb-c connector for charging with a mobile charger (usually takes 3 hours), hold their charge for months. They cost me around 27€, today go at 36€

You notice the end of time when the speed goes down due to the lowering voltage, but of course checking the display from time to time is a good practice.

If you're wondering what jumpstart is, it's a way to start a mag from 5 up. These carts usually need more power to get moving and jumpstart does that by providing something like 9-12V during the first 2 seconds of starting up the battery. This is done by long pressing the power key during startup. Not all batteries have this feature.

Btw, here's a photo of the stands I use:


of course these can be used with wrapped machines.
Because of the slight downward angle, the cart keeps the ink at the tip without dripping.

All the batteries I’ve used (Critical, FK Irons (Xion) and Mast) have an immediate stop function, meaning they don’t gradually fade off, they just suddenly stop while still maintaining full power up to that point.

I’ve been a bit unsure on batteries and spent a few months switching between batteries and cables, but I’ve gone full battery power now and things are going well. Confession: I still have a wired set up connected to each of the stations I work from…just in case.

WARNING: I don’t know if anyone else has found this, but with most batteries you are working in a permanently ‘on’ state, the machine is always running, or certainly you don’t switch off to re-dip in ink/pigment. I personally think this increases the risk of needle stick injuries when the machine is away from the skin, rinsing, wiping, changing wipes etc. and your machine is still running. This is why I purchased the critical wireless foot switch (not so expensive in reality). I have the freedom of wireless tattooing for movement but I only start and run the machine when the needle points are in front of my eyes and close to the tattoo site on the body.

The other thing about getting this foot switch, is that it has at least doubled my working time for each battery, as its off as much as its on during the tattoo process. I can get a ‘full day’ (7+ hours) of tattooing from my Bishop Critical shorty battery, which is rated in the permanent on state at 5 hours.

MirandM said:

Here are some photos of the batteries I mainly use.

View attachment 27962
first display shows the voltage. This is adjustable with 0.1 V steps with the arrow buttons

View attachment 27963
second display shows the available charge, 98%

View attachment 27964
third display shows the working time left, in this case 2 hours because I haven't used or charged this battery in quite some time, it normally shows 4-5 hours directly after full charge.
With using voltages below 8V (I normally use 7-7.6V) they can last up to 10 hours.
Personally I never look at this as it's only an approximation which highly depends on usage. I prefer to look at the second display because the % is much more precise.

These batteries are quite awesome, aluminum housing, 5-12V, have jumpstart, 2000mAh, usb-c connector for charging with a mobile charger (usually takes 3 hours), hold their charge for months. They cost me around 27€, today go at 36€

You notice the end of time when the speed goes down due to the lowering voltage, but of course checking the display from time to time is a good practice.

If you're wondering what jumpstart is, it's a way to start a mag from 5 up. These carts usually need more power to get moving and jumpstart does that by providing something like 9-12V during the first 2 seconds of starting up the battery. This is done by long pressing the power key during startup. Not all batteries have this feature.

Click to expand...

They seem good, you never experienced changed in consistency while tattoing, only by the end of the charge?

Good that there's a jump start, i had problems with my 1st, had to launch the motor by pushing the needle!

Peace,

DKJ

whippet said:

All the batteries I’ve used (Critical, FK Irons (Xion) and Mast) have an immediate stop function, meaning they don’t gradually fade off, they just suddenly stop while still maintaining full power up to that point.

I’ve been a bit unsure on batteries and spent a few months switching between batteries and cables, but I’ve gone full battery power now and things are going well. Confession: I still have a wired set up connected to each of the stations I work from…just in case.

WARNING: I don’t know if anyone else has found this, but with most batteries you are working in a permanently ‘on’ state, the machine is always running, or certainly you don’t switch off to re-dip in ink/pigment. I personally think this increases the risk of needle stick injuries when the machine is away from the skin, rinsing, wiping, changing wipes etc. and your machine is still running. This is shy I purchased the critical wireless foot switch (not so expensive in reality). I have the freedom of wireless tattooing for movement but I only start and run the machine when the needle points are in front of my eyes and close to the tattoo site on the body.

The other thing about getting this foot switch, is that it has at least doubled my working time for each battery, as its off as much as its on during the tattoo process. I can get a ‘full day’ (7+ hours) of tattooing from my Bishop Critical shorty battery, which is rated in the permanent on state at 5 hours.

Click to expand...

Thanks a lot guys, all those info are very interesting, with tattoo gear the prices are often high and unfortunatly you rarely try before you buy!

Peace,

DKJ

MirandM said:

Here's a nice pen kit (just click the link) to get started with Stigma wireless pen kit

Click to expand...

I took a look at this machine and did a bit of digging around, as something about this brand has confused me for a while.
The premium and reputable brand of tattoo machine is STIGMA-ROTARY. These machines are not cheap but they are very good and (if any machine really is) deserving of their premium price tag. Stigma-Rotary® – Professional Tattoo Equipment

The machine from Amazon called just STIGMA looks very much like a knock off trying to capitalise on the STIGMA-ROTARY brand.

I can’t comment on the quality and function of your machine, I’ve never used it , BUT we need to be careful about assuming a machine with a similar name to a premium brand will perform at the same level. I’ve got a couple of budget machines that work really well, but in finding these I purchased many more budget machines that were simply unusable on skin.

whippet said:

I took a look at this machine and did a bit of digging around, as something about this brand has confused me for a while.
The premium and reputable brand of tattoo machine is STIGMA-ROTARY. These machines are not cheap but they are very good and (if any machine really is) deserving of their premium price tag. Stigma-Rotary® – Professional Tattoo Equipment

The machine from Amazon called just STIGMA looks very much like a knock off trying to capitalise on the STIGMA-ROTARY brand.

I can’t comment on the quality and function of your machine, I’ve never used it , BUT we need to be careful about assuming a machine with a similar name to a premium brand will perform at the same level. I’ve got a couple of budget machines that work really well, but in finding these I purchased many more budget machines that were simply unusable on skin.

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Just for the record, I don't own the stigma pen from amazon and thus I don't assume anything, nor do I take responsibility for the amazon offered products.
Stigma also sells machines under their own stigma brand, see stigmaofficial.com
Whether or not this particular machine is original stigma or not, I can't tell you because I don't have one.
As for cheap machines I can vouch for the Rocket brand. I have several machines and the shown battery. They are cheap, decent, reliable made machines and very good value for the money.
And for reputable more expansive ones, said CNC Q2 and the Equalizer Proton MX that I also own. But those are not mentionable as beginners budget machines.

DKJ said:

They seem good, you never experienced changed in consistency while tattoing, only by the end of the charge?

Good that there's a jump start, i had problems with my 1st, had to launch the motor by pushing the needle!

Peace,

DKJ

Click to expand...

Nope, but I hardly ever get to that point as I usually change batteries before that happens.

whippet said:

...

WARNING: I don’t know if anyone else has found this, but with most batteries you are working in a permanently ‘on’ state, the machine is always running, or certainly you don’t switch off to re-dip in ink/pigment. I personally think this increases the risk of needle stick injuries when the machine is away from the skin, rinsing, wiping, changing wipes etc. and your machine is still running. This is why I purchased the critical wireless foot switch (not so expensive in reality). I have the freedom of wireless tattooing for movement but I only start and run the machine when the needle points are in front of my eyes and close to the tattoo site on the body.

The other thing about getting this foot switch, is that it has at least doubled my working time for each battery, as its off as much as its on during the tattoo process. I can get a ‘full day’ (7+ hours) of tattooing from my Bishop Critical shorty battery, which is rated in the permanent on state at 5 hours.

Click to expand...

It depends, if I use a fat round shader or a mag, I do switch it off for re-dipping. Those carts have a wide enough tube to suck up enough ink and if you do it with the pen running chances of splattering are real. The batteries I've shown have memory so I don't have to re-adjust the voltage after switch-off so it's quite easy and quick to do.

I did look into the wireless foot switches because they are super handy, but they also tend to raise the price considerable as you can only use them with the appropriate battery (like the critical batteries), you won't get away with the 28€ my battery costs.

MirandM said:

I did look into the wireless foot switches because they are super handy, but they also tend to raise the price considerable as you can only use them with the appropriate battery (like the critical batteries), you won't get away with the 28€ my battery costs.

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You are totally right on this one, my critical batteries cost £300 and £280 (shorty) and in comparison the wireless foot switch, around £100, was relatively inexpensive. AND…this definitely influenced my decision when I bought my last machine for shading…I bought the bishop power wand shader to suit this ecosystem. Otherwise I would have gone for the Staigma Thorn 2, so these purchases are all considerations.

Once I was tattooing and earning regularly I made the decision to invest significantly in my kit and I am so happy I did, but I recognise that these kind of prices are very expensive before you start getting a financial return. Used machines can be a good middle way.

Just on on/oof machines: I work alone now (mostly) but have worked alongside 7/8 tattooers daily in the last couple of years and not one of them switched off during the tattooing process, other than proper breaks.

whippet said:

...

Just on on/oof machines: I work alone now (mostly) but have worked alongside 7/8 tattooers daily in the last couple of years and not one of them switched off during the tattooing process, other than proper breaks.

Click to expand...

Yeah, that's logical since I don't tattoo professionally and can take my time for whatever I do, so switching off the battery is no big deal as at same time I take another look or two or three at my work.

MirandM said:

Here are some photos of the batteries I mainly use.

View attachment 27962
first display shows the voltage. This is adjustable with 0.1 V steps with the arrow buttons

View attachment 27963
second display shows the available charge, 98%

View attachment 27964
third display shows the working time left, in this case 2 hours because I haven't used or charged this battery in quite some time, it normally shows 4-5 hours directly after full charge.
With using voltages below 8V (I normally use 7-7.6V) they can last up to 10 hours.
Personally I never look at this as it's only an approximation which highly depends on usage. I prefer to look at the second display because the % is much more precise.

These batteries are quite awesome, aluminum housing, 5-12V, have jumpstart, 2000mAh, usb-c connector for charging with a mobile charger (usually takes 3 hours), hold their charge for months. They cost me around 27€, today go at 36€

You notice the end of time when the speed goes down due to the lowering voltage, but of course checking the display from time to time is a good practice.

If you're wondering what jumpstart is, it's a way to start a mag from 5 up. These carts usually need more power to get moving and jumpstart does that by providing something like 9-12V during the first 2 seconds of starting up the battery. This is done by long pressing the power key during startup. Not all batteries have this feature.

Click to expand...

Small rectification to this post.

I just recharged the batteries and now the third display show 0 hours, so it actually shows the time you worked with it's current charge. This is why it showed 2 hours because that was from my last tattoo session as I didn't recharge the battery until now.
Which also shows that the stated time of over 10 hours could very well be right, as with 2 hours it was still at 98%. I'm pretty sure my last session was retouching so almost certainly very light work.

florajones said:

Both of these tattoo machines are quite good to get started, but they are quite expensive. Instead, you should start with a coil tattoo machine that is cheaper in price, such as the Stigma Complete Kit or the ATOMUS Coil Tattoo Machine.

Click to expand...

I have been using the Mast Archer for the last six months, and it is working perfectly. You can read the review here: