Question About Bold Lines

zipp · 22 Oct 2013

Hello. Great forum. Glad i found it

I've been tattooing for about a year now and having some
Trouble understanding the proper use of needles for bold lines.
The biggest liner needle i have is a 9rl and when im tattooing with it the line is abou the thickness of a ballpoint pen. About 1mm.

The lines i want to accomplish is more like a sharpie thickness line if im expressing myself correctly. A thick bold smooth line.

I tried lining with a 11rs (round shader) And was amazed how smooth and bold the color packed. Almost perfect. And thought to myself. Is it really appropriate to line with a shader? Are there some downsides? Would ppl think its wrong?

Because i dont get when i hear people say that they use 7rl and 9rl for thick lines... my lines dont become thick with thoose. (Like a ballpoint line) and the needle of 9s are like 1mm big anyway so how could they possibly produce a bold line? My machine is running smooth and has goid ink flow.. i just dont get it... thanks...

TLDR: lines become narrow with a 9liner , smooth and bold with round shaders. Are 9rls really able to produce a bold line even though the needle is 1mm in width. Machine settings? and wrong to line with shader?

Patrick · 23 Oct 2013

Hi Kalle, welcome to the forum. A 9rl should give you a fairly bold line, certainly a fair bit thicker than a biro pen. This could be down to a number of factors EG: type of needle (a bugpin will give a tighter line), needle depth, hand / machine speed, how your machine is tuned, your technique etc. My usual liner is a 5rl, but for thicker lines when doing old school or anything that requires a thicker line I use a 7rl or sometimes a 9rl, I also sculp the lines sometimes to avoid changing needles or use a shader needle.
Shader needles can also be used for lining and there is no reason why you shouldn't use them. If they work for you and you say you get a good line then that's ok, so I would recommend using what works for you. Basically IMO tattooing is down to personal preferences, so I would experiment with different set ups, needles etc, etc and you will find what suits you the best.

zipp · 23 Oct 2013

thank you for your reply!
then it must be something wrong with my setup, i have a real shitty setup atm, china stuff..
investing in better gear atm and power supply.
a 9rl is not giving me what i would call a bold line, so something wrong with the set up i guess,
my technique is down so im gonna try it out with the new equipment and see how it goes.
thanks

Rising Star · 23 Oct 2013

Mate when I see other peoples work I'm always stumped by how thick lines look with needles used - I use a 9rl and it looks like someone else's 7rl,

A 7 looks like a 5 etc.

I run a cutback liner, short stroke and have a fast hand speed - I've tried different stroke lengths, slowing my hand down etc to be more like others but, everyone is different

I rarely use a 5rl unless tiny stuff, 3's for really small detail work but my 7 and 9's seem to be most peoples 5 and 7's!

Cheers

Dave

zipp · 23 Oct 2013

Exactly what i mean dave !

My 9 lines come out as others 7s maby even 5.. i dont know what is causing it. But im guessing its my gear . Like i said its real crap and happy im replacing it soon

Cheers

TexasPT · 23 Oct 2013

zipp said:
my technique is down

There are so many sound tattooists out there hampered by poor equipment. It's a shame really...can't wait to see what your upgrades bring you.

acleverley · 23 Oct 2013

You need to find your balance between hand speed and machine speed. Try slowing down your hand but keep your speed consistent. Keep in mind not to go too slow and over working the skin. Think of the skin as a sponge, and the tattoo machine as a squirt gun. If you squirt the sponge in a line and move fast only a little bit of water is hitting each area and it won't spread out very far. Now move really slow and that sponge gets saturated and the water spreads out and will make a thinker line. Just make sure you stay at the proper death and not go too deep, if you go deep and put a lot of ink under the skin you will have terrible blow outs.

At least this is how it was explained to me and it made it better to visualize how it works. I always thought the line thickness was solely dependent on the size of the needle grouping but I saw a guy make a perfectly smooth super thick line with a 9rl that looked like it would have been with something twice that size.

maggot · 23 Oct 2013

still laughing at marks comment but as to lining with a shader once upon a time there was just rounds and flats and the rounds would be more like round shaders than liners

Kinky · 23 Oct 2013

If I want a nice chunky line (power lining)
I use a 9rs in my liner and if it's still not thick enough (which I highly doubt) then sculpt it up!

Rising Star · 23 Oct 2013

TexasPT said:
There are so many sound tattooists out there hampered by poor equipment. It's a shame really...can't wait to see what your upgrades bring you.

Not your typical kinda post lol

Bradtattz · 23 Oct 2013

Hiya,
I have been having the same problems when trying to get nice bold thick lines.
My machines are genuine Sharpz dialers and my inks are Sharpz easyflow and eternal, so not cheap china.
I had an elbow cobweb done at tattoo jam and the guy used a 9rs and got lovely bold black lines.......9rs`s on order!!!

hYSobe · 23 Oct 2013

not really off topic but 9rs in a 9rt? i've heard anything upto a 9rl 8wrap coils can push in, (i have a 18rear spring, 20 front) would that even push a 9rs in? my lines are pretty normal for a 5rl seem the right thickness

TexasPT · 23 Oct 2013

Rising Star said:
Not your typical kinda post lol

I've done this long enough now to know that, in my hands, there is NO machine capable of putting down better lines than me. The machine will only produce what I am capable of...not it. It would be like blaming my hammer that it didn't drive nails straight. The hammer, and the machine, are just tools. They sit idle until I use them.

Peter Suluape Hand Samoan Tatau (Hand Tapped Tattoo) - FINISHING TOUCHES - YouTube

^^^this guy puts in BOLD lines with solid fills with a stick. His depth is consistent and my goodness look at that stretch!!!^^^^

I blamed my machines, too. Or my ink...or the earth's rotation in relationship to my zodiac sign...the reality is that the needle is as thick as it is. Period. If you can't get a line as thick as your needle YOU are doing something wrong. You are going to fast, not deep enough, etc. I can take that 9r and put it on a stick and get a line as thick as a 9r. Try taking a fat tipped marker, pressing it to the paper, and NOT getting a line as thick as the marker. You have to do something wrong to make that happen.

When I realized that it was me...I got better.

Mark

TexasPT · 23 Oct 2013

hYSobe said:
not really off topic but 9rs in a 9rt? i've heard anything upto a 9rl 8wrap coils can push in, (i have a 18rear spring, 20 front) would that even push a 9rs in? my lines are pretty normal for a 5rl seem the right thickness

6 layers just means less resistance and less time for voltage to travel to charge the coils. There are plenty of builders who use them. The Godoys use 6 layers and they suggest them for ANY grouping. I've run a 25mag with Chinese 8 layer coils.

take a 9rs and load it up.
push the A bar down so the needle sticks out about 2mm
power up and increase volts until the needle sticks out 2mm

now...gently bog down the machine with your thumb...

increase volts again until it will push that needle out 2mm

I've got a nickle that says it can do it.

jcroe · 23 Oct 2013

If you are using long tapered needles it is going to give you a tighter line as it is a tighter grouping. That being said, A needle is only going to produce a line as wide as the grouping. You are not going to be able to put down the same line as a 11rs with a 9rl in a single pass. You would have to sculpt that.

OldNslow · 23 Oct 2013

I`m sure this has been asked already and i could search but has anyone used a RS to do lines , i know people shade with a RL , just wondered if you could use it the other way round

hYSobe · 23 Oct 2013

there's some good valuable information here, suggest not using 9rl's to get those thick bold lines go with the rs's

Hummingbird disposable tube review - YouTube

check around the 7 minute mark, very good channel a lot of awesome info

TexasPT · 24 Oct 2013

Round shaders are not always as clean as a liner. Sometimes the edges of the line look "soft". Not always..not sure what the deciding factor is on it.

Patrick · 24 Oct 2013

OldNslow said:
I`m sure this has been asked already and i could search but has anyone used a RS to do lines , i know people shade with a RL , just wondered if you could use it the other way round

It is mentioned earlier in this thread, but yes you can use RS for lining but you may need a bit more power depending on size of needle. And don't forget that as "already mentioned" the taper and size of the actual needles will make a difference as well as other factors.

zipp · 24 Oct 2013

hYSobe said:
there's some good valuable information here, suggest not using 9rl's to get those thick bold lines go with the rs's

Hummingbird disposable tube review - YouTube

check around the 7 minute mark, very good channel a lot of awesome info

excellent video hYSobe thanks for that!

tatteredone · 24 Oct 2013

Not sure if this is the case but I picked up a tip last time I visited my artist. For super bold lines in their traditional work they take the needle and heat up the solder with a lighter (never done it, but noticed the difference when it was done). It spreads out the needles. I can attest to using a 7RS instead of a 7rl. I like how much bolder the lines are but as Mark said it will be softer on the edges. If anyone has any details on heating the needles up that can further expand on the subject I am curious.

hYSobe · 24 Oct 2013

tatteredone said:
Not sure if this is the case but I picked up a tip last time I visited my artist. For super bold lines in their traditional work they take the needle and heat up the solder with a lighter (never done it, but noticed the difference when it was done). It spreads out the needles. I can attest to using a 7RS instead of a 7rl. I like how much bolder the lines are but as Mark said it will be softer on the edges. If anyone has any details on heating the needles up that can further expand on the subject I am curious.

yep i've seen this aswell from some of kage yacha's videos, if you heat the needles it will produce a little bit of black carbon (i think it's carbon) on the needle tip but that's fine, they burn steel(i think) to produce the carbon (soot looking stuff) and mix it with baby oil anyway that's how they used to make prison ink

so yeah if you want to turn a 5RL into a 5RS you can use a lighter since heat will expand it, just wipe the carbon/black off the end of the needle that it will produce afaik it's fine? just give it a little rinse/wipe after

LongLegs · 25 Oct 2013

tatteredone said:
Not sure if this is the case but I picked up a tip last time I visited my artist. For super bold lines in their traditional work they take the needle and heat up the solder with a lighter (never done it, but noticed the difference when it was done). It spreads out the needles. I can attest to using a 7RS instead of a 7rl. I like how much bolder the lines are but as Mark said it will be softer on the edges. If anyone has any details on heating the needles up that can further expand on the subject I am curious.

Hey hey!!! A traditional artist who I got a piece from last year, before setting up took a flame to the needle tips!! I presume it spreads the needles slightly for a little more boldness in the linework

Saik156 · 12 Nov 2014

If you are looking for thick lines try sculpting your lines. i normally lay a single pass with a size 12 7RL then i will go back with my liner thats setup to run very slow and sculpt the edges of my lines to give them a nice thick appearance. I've also seen a couple of videos where the guy actually ran two lines staggered and gilled the gap with a shader. if your anywhere near bury st edmunds it would be way easier to show you than explain online

toetoe62 · 12 Nov 2014

i was taught to do two parallel lines and then fill in between or open my liner up with a stanley blade but as the years go by, there are so many more pre made needle groupings that their isn't any need for it, just buy the size you need, i know up to 18 round liner, that should get you close.

Rising Star · 27 Nov 2014

I love a nice fat line! lol. Burnt 9's are lovely to work with for that old skool look. Just 2 or 3 seconds on a tight 9 with a lighter gets you a lovely thick line

Christopher · 7 Jun 2017

I use both rs and rl to get lines. It's all about set up and amps the speed of your hand and the angle the you hold the machine bro. Just get some oranges and some different liner and shader and see what works for you... Run that on your liner machine if you want to make a good line. I like to whip shade with a 9rs that about all I use them for, but everyone does it different just got to find yours.. P's for bold ass lines I use a 14rs it's all there and ever will be for a fucking bold line... And don't buy junk needle bro and use intenze ink

Phat_Cat_6t6 · 31 Oct 2020

hYSobe said:
yep i've seen this aswell from some of kage yacha's videos, if you heat the needles it will produce a little bit of black carbon (i think it's carbon) on the needle tip but that's fine, they burn steel(i think) to produce the carbon (soot looking stuff) and mix it with baby oil anyway that's how they used to make prison ink

so yeah if you want to turn a 5RL into a 5RS you can use a lighter since heat will expand it, just wipe the carbon/black off the end of the needle that it will produce afaik it's fine? just give it a little rinse/wipe after

I don't know who taught you this... maybe some old timer tattooer... but you should NEVER use a lighter to loosen your grouping.
I worked with someone that used this method about 15 years ago. I've seen his tattoos since, and the linework is HORRIBLE! These needles are SO FINE that any heat added to them may cause damage to the tips and might result in a hooked or bent needle.
If you need to use a shading needle, use a shading needle. If you need a tight lining needle, use a tight lining needle. These needles are grouped at a factory to give you the best results. There's simply NO WAY that you're going to have a nice grouping of needles by loosening the solder on an already perfectly grouped needle.
Using a lighter is just REALLY BAD ADVICE!!!

Phat_Cat_6t6 · 31 Oct 2020

hYSobe said:
yep i've seen this aswell from some of kage yacha's videos, if you heat the needles it will produce a little bit of black carbon (i think it's carbon) on the needle tip but that's fine, they burn steel(i think) to produce the carbon (soot looking stuff) and mix it with baby oil anyway that's how they used to make prison ink

so yeah if you want to turn a 5RL into a 5RS you can use a lighter since heat will expand it, just wipe the carbon/black off the end of the needle that it will produce afaik it's fine? just give it a little rinse/wipe after

I don't know who taught you this... maybe some old timer tattooer... but you should NEVER use a lighter to loosen your grouping.
I worked with someone that used this method about 15 years ago. I've seen his tattoos since, and the linework is HORRIBLE! These needles are SO FINE that any heat added to them may cause damage to the tips and might result in a hooked or bent needle.
If you need to use a shading needle, use a shading needle. If you need a tight lining needle, use a tight lining needle. These needles are grouped at a factory to give you the best results. There's simply NO WAY that you're going to have a nice grouping of needles by loosening the solder on an already perfectly grouped needle.
Using a lighter is just REALLY BAD ADVICE!!!

MalligaMallan · 31 Oct 2020

You're answer can be relevant anyway of course, but this particular member has been a pro tattooer for years now, and this thread (and his comments) are 7 years old ?

Question About Bold Lines

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