Problems with Shading

Hi folks... been having major issues when trying to shade.

I'm using 5M1 and 7M1 and just can't get a nice shade with it. I'm diluting links etc but just end up with a black line and then a very faint black/grey coming out of it... this is due to havng to do it over and over thus the main entry point getting more ink etc.

Also noticing the individual needle lines too...

should I be using M2s? seems the M1s I have are very spaced out especially between the rows and think this is causing the line trails etc

thanks

Some photos -

Assuming your shader is setup properly and hitting nice and soft, M2's, tilt your hand and move your hand faster. every time I see the peppered effect its usually due to machine running to slow or improper angle and speed.

The above and use bug pin

ChrisWarren said:

Assuming your shader is setup properly and hitting nice and soft, M2's, tilt your hand and move your hand faster. every time I see the peppered effect its usually due to machine running to slow or improper angle and speed.

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So to increase speed reduce the gap between front spring and contact screw?

U used a 7m1 on ny normal shader and it gave nice blends but peppery effect. Tried the same with my faster shader and the difference was very noticable. No pepper effect really smooth. Just same as normal shader with gap betwen shader and liner

DJHicks said:

So to increase speed reduce the gap between front spring and contact screw?

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what size needles are you using #12 #10 #8

looked at Chris' answer and I was thinking the opposite. If your hand is moving too fast, the needles are hitting with greater space between impacts and you don't get a blend.

So I was thinking slow your hand down.

I'm second guessing myself on this though due to Chris' answer...hmmmm, now I have to think a bit.

Mark

TexasPT said:

looked at Chris' answer and I was thinking the opposite. If your hand is moving too fast, the needles are hitting with greater space between impacts and you don't get a blend.

So I was thinking slow your hand down.

I'm second guessing myself on this though due to Chris' answer...hmmmm, now I have to think a bit.

Mark

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i think it all depends on how fast his shader is running, i too believe he needs to slow his hand down a bit to get a smoother blend,or speed his machine up a bit, keeping it nice and soft to suit his hand speed..... my B&G soft shader is almost as fast as my liner.....but i can also achieve soft smooth blends with my packer....main difference is, slowing my hand right down to suit the machine speed

It really comes down to personal preference and technique. I use a short throw & soft springs, you need to do some reading into machine tuning cause you should not be using the contact screw to adjust speed, let your power supply do all that. Think of your contact screw as a way to make the machine work more with your style. It comes down to trying out what works best for you. Just because something works for someone else doesn't mean it will work the same way for you because no one tattoos the same. I would start by checking your spring setup and your throw to make sure your in the right direction and then change one thing at a time until you find what works. just my 2 cents

ChrisWarren said:

It really comes down to personal preference and technique. I use a short throw & soft springs, you need to do some reading into machine tuning cause you should not be using the contact screw to adjust speed, let your power supply do all that. Think of your contact screw as a way to make the machine work more with your style. It comes down to trying out what works best for you. Just because something works for someone else doesn't mean it will work the same way for you because no one tattoos the same. I would start by checking your spring setup and your throw to make sure your in the right direction and then change one thing at a time until you find what works. just my 2 cents

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I would have a look at some of the shading videos in the media library on this site, this will give you an idea of how to do it. Also as Chris says make sure your machine is properly tuned and experiment with different set ups EG: Springs, throw hand & machine speed etc. I use approx 3mm throw and a fairly quick hand speed, but this is only my preference. When you have the correct spring tension with approx 3mm gap you should be ok and only use the contact screw for fine tuning. I use either a 16 or 18 front spring and a 18 rear, but you may prefer something different.

ChrisWarren said:

It really comes down to personal preference and technique. I use a short throw & soft springs, you need to do some reading into machine tuning cause you should not be using the contact screw to adjust speed, let your power supply do all that.

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The power supply doesn't adjust the speed! From the plenty of reading and experimenting... increasing the volts makes it hit harder not necessarily faster.

I'm still learning so maybe wrong but read/seen that explanation over and over so assumed it was reasonably true.

speed isn't going to increase with volts. To verify I just put a machine on the power source and started at 5v and worked my way up to 10.5 and the CPS (cycles per second=speed) never changed more than 1 or 2 cps.

volts are going to increase the force at which your armature bar is pulled down to the coil. that force can also be increased by the tension you put on the rear spring.

There are about 1,000,000,000,000 variables it seems.

with shading I use as few volts as possible...the absolute minimum to get a loaded machine to still put the needle in the skin. I use soft springs, like Chris, because that slows a machine down, too. And I use a larger gap on my contact screw.

It works for me. And I'm the only one I'm worried about when I'm tattooing.

DJ- Just play with different set ups, different hand speeds, etc. Don't ever feel like one way is better than another, it's not. It all depends on what works best for YOU. that's what synthetic skin is for...to beat that stuff up and find what works before you go carving up some poor guy.

I found an article some time back and thought this would be a great time to share it. It certainly explains the voltage vs speed topic. I am not sure where I found this but I do know I didn't write it! LOL

Enjoy!

Tattoo Machine Voltage & Speed

Trying to setup a tattoo machine outfit can seriously make you want pull out your hair. This is especially true with the topic if Voltage. Determining the proper voltage to run your tattoo machine with is actually quite simple, if you understand the complexities of electrical circuits, such as inductance, reactance, resistance, and so on.

The first thing to get straight is that voltage does NOT control speed, it controls "Power" (The amount of hitting-force the needle has). The speed of the tattoo machine is controlled by the physical geometry and spring setup. Voltage needs to be set just high enough to create enough power/hitting-force to puncture the skin. Beyond this, and you just create unnecessary heat in the coils.

Voltage can vary greatly from one system to another. For example, a 6 wrap 1" shorty machine with a light back spring may only require 6 volts to operate properly. Coils with 10 or 12 wraps will require more running voltage, since there is more resistance; more voltage is required to maintain sufficient amperage. An 8 wrap machine may run well at 8 volts, while a 12 wrap machine may require at least 12 volts to operate properly.

Tattoo machine speed is critical. The reason is that tattoo needles are actually quite dull, and to get good clean work, the needles must hit the skin very fast and hard in order to "pop" in and out, while overcoming the way fatty areas "bounce" when the needle hits. A good starting point for a liner machine would be 130 HZ, and 100 HZ for a shader.

Review
Voltage controls "Power", not speed
Speed is controlled by the physical geometry, point-gap, & spring setup

Machine Speed VS Hand Speed:

Machine speed is also directly relative to "hand-speed". Typically, the faster the machine, the faster your hand speed has to be, and the slower the machine, the slower the hand-speed. But this is not always true, a slow machine and a fast hand is good for blending color.

Machine Speed VS Power:

Most electro-mechanical equipment must sacrifice at least one factor for the benefit of another. Tattoo machines are no different. To get a tattoo machine to run fast, say 160 HZ, you must sacrifice "power". To get lots of power, speed must be sacrificed.
This means that a very fast machine of 160 Hz, would only be suitable when ran with smaller size needle setups because of the lack of power. And in order to run large needle groupings, like say a 13M1, speed must be reduced to raise the power factor.

Machine Speed VS Pigment:

The machine speed you select also has to do with how thin & watery the color is. A fast, short stroke is usually required for line work, but the same may actually be useful for applying very thin grey wash, or even watery yellows.

Slower machine speeds can be useful for "peppering" or applying very thick color pigments. Machine speed may also need adjustment based on how well a particular color applies to each client’s skin type, such as white, which often applies better with slower speeds.

Shading, color, machine speed & hand speed:

Firstly, good shading, whether it's color or black & grey, is done with a slow machine (100HZ) and a fast hand. Now on the other hand, if you're doing solid color, black or otherwise, a fast machine and a fast hand is suitable, assuming the pigment is thin enough, and your machine is strong enough to push your needle size.

There is so much talk about machine speed, everyone seems to forget that hand speed is absolutely crucial, and relative to machine speed and type of desired result. You can almost tattoo at ANY speed you like, assuming that your hand speed, needle size, and ink thickness, can all be adjusted to fit your style.

I also have two more by the same author, 1) covering coils & capacitors and 2) springs and duty cycle. These were of GREAT help to me when first starting and made the mind numbing info coming from everywhere more clear and understandable. I you all want I can post it here or wherever info like this should be posted.. just let me know!

Jim

With the info that Jim has provided you should get a better understanding of how to set up your machine. Also google tattoo education "ask Guy Aitchinson" he explains on that forum how he gets smooth shading, the section about what needles to use is particulary good. He advises that a spread mag rather than a stacked mag or RS is much easier and better. Not quite sure what he means but I guess he is refering to flats or spread the needles with a razor blade. Def worth a read through. Also you can ask him questions via the forum, and it seems he gives honest answers without asking if you work in a studio etc or ant other crap that most pros want to know.

I know what you are talking about David, as you whip out the mag, the individual needles just keep darkening up the same areas, are you push whipping it or pull whipping it? if you know what i mean. I found pull whipping (dragging) worked better, but still not perfect. I can't believe all the variants of techniques and tuning in answer to this, the japanese got beautiful results from pokey poking a tapping stick!

Bullethead said:

I also have two more by the same author, 1) covering coils & capacitors and 2) springs and duty cycle. These were of GREAT help to me when first starting and made the mind numbing info coming from everywhere more clear and understandable. I you all want I can post it here or wherever info like this should be posted.. just let me know!

Jim

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Yes, please, would you share the other tutorials here?

this thread is 7 years old...most of these guys are not here anymore