Needle depth and measuring help?

Hey guys! Just thought i could try my luck here, since iv already googled my ass off :notworthy:
Im straight up new, and haven't even practiced on fake skin yet.. (since im waiting for the tip i sadly forgot to order the first time.)
So im just playing around reading and learning about the machine and the one thing im really unsure about is how far the needle should go. I know it should be about 1-2 mm, and its the size of a dime or nickel. (correct me if im wrong)

But the thing is i cant get my hands on either so i need some good advice on how i can measure so i dont go too deep or too shallow So if you have any tricks up your sleeve or any good advice to keep in mind, or something special you use i would be reeaally happy to know the secret

All you need to do is push the a-bar down so the needles are fully extended & then adjust the tip so that just 1-2mm of needle is sticking out. Now you just tattoo up to the depth of the tip. This is called riding the tube.
This method is the best way of making sure you dont go too deep although differenet body parts need less depth (wrists, neck etc)
As you become more experienced & learn to feel the correct depth you can have more of the needle sticking out. However you will now need to make sure you only tatt to the correct depth & cant rely on the tube to stop you.
This is a much cleaner method as you generally wont get a large blot of ink on the skin so you can see the needle & where you are going but i dont advise just yet.
To get the correct length of needle i used to line it up next to a tape measure. Over time you will learn what the correct depth looks like so wont need to measure it.
Hopefully that helps

Thanks for raising this question and for the detailed answer above! I also wondered the same (I've practice twice on fake skin), seems I have been extending my needles too far!

When you're setting up the machine for practice skin, set it at around 1mm and run it for a few seconds....as it's running, gently apply a little pressure against the rubber nipple with your finger to simulate the tension of the needle pearcing the skin.
As you do this watch the stroke length of the needle coming out the bottom of the tube and this will give you a much better example of how far your needles enter the skin.

The more needles you use the more resistance the skin will give ...so apply/adjust slightly more pressure to the nipple grommet to see what your actual stroke depth will be.

Once you've learnt this technique things will get easier but practice makes perfect and if need be take notes as you go.

Good luck

Just my opinion so no one freak but if your tattooing pig or fake skin and completely staying away from human folloe the above advice but work off the tip of the needle and avoid riding the tube, might as well learm to control your septh without a crutch right off the bat.

Thank you guys! Will try it out and practice on riding the tube first, googled it and seems like its easier to see where im going and control the depth myself So now i just need to practice a lot

Im very inexperienced, have and still are practising on practise skin, riding the tube may sound easier but i have found that its not very accurate, i find it very difficult to get close to line work when colouring and easy to be a little off when lining. I think its the distance from tube to needle tips and you sort of have to guess the difference. i have been trying watching the needle closer, listening to the sound of my machine bogging / slowing down and using my little finger and next finger to try to hold the depth ( which is taking practise) basically im tending towards agreeing with Nigel. But try both ways and keep an open mind, easier is'nt always the best way long term im finding.

Something that helps if your riding the tube is to use diamond tips. Much easier to see the needle.

I see in alot video to artist put needle more then 2-3mm out from tips and control with hand. I suggest you for start dont put more then 1.5-2mm because easy get blowout.I most time have coin ( before sterilized this coin ) and compare thickness of coin with needle go out.

Regarding too much needle hang listen to this that I did some years ago. I purchased a kit from Ronnie Starr in about 1992 in the days when there was no internet, no instruction manuals, nothing. You got tattooed by a pro artist but could not ask questions, you just observed, anyway I noticed my artist had a lot of needle coming out of the tube so I decided to try the same on my leg, I had too much needle, machine running too fast, hand moving too slow, the result was a cut as if it had been done with a scalpel, I put the machine away for a few years then lol!

I still ride the tube but use diamond tips, this was recommended to me by an artist friend, you can still see where you are going and can tattoo script with them.

marked 4 life said:

Regarding too much needle hang listen to this that I did some years ago. I purchased a kit from Ronnie Starr in about 1992 in the days when there was no internet, no instruction manuals, nothing. You got tattooed by a pro artist but could not ask questions, you just observed, anyway I noticed my artist had a lot of needle coming out of the tube so I decided to try the same on my leg, I had too much needle, machine running too fast, hand moving too slow, the result was a cut as if it had been done with a scalpel, I put the machine away for a few years then lol!

I still ride the tube but use diamond tips, this was recommended to me by an artist friend, you can still see where you are going and can tattoo script with them.

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hahaha sorry, but had to laugh a bit of your story even though i shouldnt lol but that sound pretty horrible can see why you put it away at first! Feeling pretty lucky having everything bit of info available or else i would have chickened out Tried to ride the tube today but felt alittle out of control on where the lines went, but it was my first time ever trying so could be that too ill try a diamond tip next time, thanks for the tip

In my opinion I think it's best to avoid riding the tube. I find that the way you hold the grip has a lot to do with keeping a nice consistent depth while working off the tips. It is not easy and I still struggle with it at times.

id say start with not riding the tube, you're just going to teach yourself bad habits, it's like learning to drive an automatic, then a few years later switching to a manual car, you have to learn all over again in my eyes

and riding the tube is horrible, literally cannot see where your lines are going, makes such a mess too and rubs the stencil off

Plenty of good info/answers here. I personally didn't like riding the tube when I tried it - coudnt see where I was going as ink went everywhere. I hang my needle out 3 - 4mm and find it so much easier and cleaner this way. Some people love diamond tips, I ordered some by accident - being too lazy to read description and when they arrived, I literally sulked cos I felt like I wasted my money! Still have them gathering dust. It's all personal preference but with some good mixed advice here, its now down to you with a little trial and error

Cheers, Dave

Lots of good advice , but i agree with Jamie,riding the tube is horrible and a bad habit you cant see where you are going ink goes all over the place and you lose your stencil.

Really do yourself a favour and learn to ride the needle. try about 3 mm sticking out and practise just using half the needle going in giving you 1.5 mm perfect for lining.

Practise, practise and practise some more.

Regarding riding the tube and the ink splatter blobs etc, from experience, a good quality diamond tube and correctly sized needle bar works wonders. On previous cheap tubes which had the thick bulbous tip, yes they were messy, modern tubes seem to have a finer narrower tip, also if using a diamond tip, depending on which way you hold the machine, you can actually see the needle clearly.

Andy i would like to give a decent diamond tip a try, i have cheap e bay 1s. Where do you get the tips you mention from ?

I use pin up brand from powerline I think tattoo shop also do them, my computer is playing up today, I would suggest purchase a few tubes of different makes and try them to see what suits you.

Riding the tube is an awful way to start out..Why start out learning bad habits? Its funny no-one mention trauma to the skin from riding the tube...any tube...diamond tips even more trauma...Diamond tips are made to give better control less needle movement inside the tube since the V gives the needle a place to rest as opposed to a round tip.Also the diamonds make it easier to see your needles...If you start out learning shortcuts and bad habits...think of what thatll do to the rest of your tattooing career...more shortcuts and bad habits!! There is a great video on youtube Tattoo lining proper form...Dont use your fingers!!

It's a very easy and simple process. When I set up my machine, i make sure the tips of the needles are just inside the tip of the tube. I do this every single time, with every single machine i have, and I know I have plenty of needle hang. I know my depth is correct because it's set to my style of tattooing. Tattooing is consistency. Doing the same thing every time, technically. Trial and error is the main factor of finding consistency. When you're tattooing and you just ran 3 perfect lines...take note of where your needles are at in the tube while at rest. Take note of the way you held the machine, the angle you held the machine. these are all factors.

troub1edsou1z said:

It's a very easy and simple process. When I set up my machine, i make sure the tips of the needles are just inside the tip of the tube. I do this every single time, with every single machine i have, and I know I have plenty of needle hang. I know my depth is correct because it's set to my style of tattooing. Tattooing is consistency. Doing the same thing every time, technically. Trial and error is the main factor of finding consistency. When you're tattooing and you just ran 3 perfect lines...take note of where your needles are at in the tube while at rest. Take note of the way you held the machine, the angle you held the machine. these are all factors.

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Amen

Deleted re: comments on tube riding below

I have always struggled off the needle tips, my hand does not want to glide across the skin, I know it is moving from the elbow/shoulder but my brain wont let me, I have tried Vaseline on the glove, a wet tissue wrapped around my fingers but I still tend to move from the wrist, I have tried but it feels I have no control and can mess a line up, thinking about it, I dont work solely off the tube or off the needle, mine is a kind of mid way just to be awkward lol!

Just my two penneth.... I use ordinary steel round tips, but i have chamfered the end of them to an angle about 45 degrees so that i can see what my needles are doing while riding the tip. I find it lessens the 'blob' effect too. Might work for those who are riding tips.

Andy, I am the same, i prefer the feel of a shorter stroke from the wrist, well controlled, to a sliding hand, your not alone

You arent using steel round tips on skin are you Daz, unless you have an autoclave then dont, stick to disposables, I use 2 different brands of diamond V tips.

I dont have an autoclave yet but one is planned, but it is only myself and my close friend they are used for, (no one else until i am fully versed in all aspects of safety and reach a decent level of skills) and they get immersed in a solution of dettol, then cleaned in boiling water afterwards. I didnt like the friction from the plastics.

Goldwingdaz said:

I dont have an autoclave yet but one is planned, but it is only myself and my close friend they are used for, (no one else until i am fully versed in all aspects of safety and reach a decent level of skills) and they get immersed in a solution of dettol, then cleaned in boiling water afterwards. I didnt like the friction from the plastics.

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Dettol and boiling water is not enough, my advice is buy some disposables, autoclaves are expensive and have to be maintained and periodically tested, also it would need to be a vacuum autoclave, disposables are more convenient and a decent brand will not cause you any friction problems unless your machine is not aligned properly, too much bend in the needle bar, rubber bands too tight .....

Gotta agree with Marked...it's just not worth the risk, for anyone.

ok, so steel for myself, disposables for anyone I do. np. i still have around 50 so they can come back out of the storage box. Thanks for the advice.

Correcy depth is about the width of a 1p which is 1.7mm can go even shallower but not too much. As the needle enters the skin once the ink runs go slightly further this should be correct depth. I rode the tube but now i ride the needle as extra needle hang is more accurate and easier to see what your doing. Go gentle with the machine tuned just past the humming point as it starts to buzz properly that should be correct voltage and as the others say put grommet against your thumb and make sure you do not have too much give. Extra needle hang also means you can have more give and not loose the correct depth as the needle dissapears into the tube.

Deviantdan16 said:

I rode the tube but now i ride the needle as extra needle hang is more accurate and easier to see what your doing.

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This is a very timely comment, as I was about to launch another thread on this subject.

OK so this might be contentious but here goes, and I am looking for genuine responses.

Quick BG: I was scratching for 12 years, then quit for 20 years, just coming back. During this initial period I rode the tubes, tried working off the tips but it freaked me out and I never tried again again.

So this time around I've been really determined to master tattoing off the tips. I like the visibility it gives you, the sensitivity for touching in details and tickling elements into a design. As some of you know I spent a lot of months practising this approach on pig and fake skin (100s of hours) before getting onto live flesh.

So now I've put 10+ tattoos on in the last month or so, not so many but I'm easing back in. My very recent experience challenges some things I wrote earlier in this thread...oh the damn reality of it all!

I'm charging buttons as I'm lacking confidence in my process and working far too slow - and the main reason is that my lining is in serious regression. In the years I was riding the tube my lining was a strength, now its a real weakness and i'm struggling to get clean lines of uniform thickness. I feel tentative when lining, continually wiping (line by line) to check I'm on the right track.

So today I set up a machine 'riding the tube' with literally 1mm of needle pretrusion, maybe a tad more. I hit a kind of doodle pad on the top of my leg with a few lines...super crisp, super black, uniform and super quick. Trust me some faith has been restored. I went on to do a few pieces on synthetic skin using diamond tips, then I swithched to undersize rounds (a 7rl in a 5R tube, 5rl in a 3R tube).

The undersize tube method drastically reduces the ink blindness (splurge) typical of tube riding, though I expect to be dipping more often. For now that's better than cleaning and checking every line, when I normally re-dip as well.

So for my next piece I plan to ride the tube, even if its just for the crunch lines, the big ones and those on the perimiter of the design, hanging the needle if I have to add details.

I know there's a lot of negativity to tube riding and my QUESTION is 'why shouldn't you do it?', especially if the linework is coming out solid?

I know about the lack of visibility, but with practise you can mitigate this. You can even start lifting at the end of lines (connections) and watch the tip in...I used to do this all the time. As I said, the smaller tubes help reduce the ink splurge PLUS they locate the needle pretty central in the tip, so you have a better idea where the needle tips are.

I also hear that moving the tube across the skin causes irritation. Well in all the years I did this, I never saw it, so i'm a bit suspicious about this argument. I always used round tips back then.

Really keen to hear your thoughts on this 'why not? question, though my plan is to incorporate it as I continue developing my 'professional' technique - working off the tips.

As a bit of a weird comparison, I thought about the barber shaving your hair, lets say a number 2 all over. Riding the tube seems like using the clippers with the number 2 guard comb on, ensuring the hair is all cut to one length. Working off the tips seems more like using the clippers without a guard...anything could happen!

I have never riden the tube, always worked off the tips. But I can see that it must be easier in some ways. I have major difficulty getting consistant lines on fatty flesh and the lines sometimes heal knotty. I might try tube riding next time.

Whippet, we have had this conversation before regarding tube v tip, after your perseverance with the tip I gave it a whirl but it really slowed me down, so I analysed what I do, first off I use diamond or v tip for lining and colour packing (if using rounds, cuts down on the amount of tubes I need to keep in) I looked at dragging the tip of the tube on the skin but I dont do it, with a v tip you see so much needle you tend to mostly not drag the tip, sometimes you may do and this cab be seen before you wipe as you may have 2 ink lines, one from the needle and one from the tip depending which way you are going, I dont have a problem doing script as I can see the needle with a v tip, but the biggest single different thing that made a massive difference to my line work was good quality needles and using my micro dial instead of rotary for line work, the micro dial is more forgiving and regardless of forward, backward, left or right the lines are better and stronger and mostly first pass, I rarely have to go back over a line these days also I have found that a faster coil is better for tattooing script particularly with big swirls on it.

Also I have purchased some old Micky Sharpz machines and sent them to a guy for a tune up and tweaking, they have come back different machines, I had a pair of micro dials set for small and large groupings and a pair of T dials set one long throw very soft hit and the other shorter throw harder hit and amazing at banging in black first pass, these are improving my tattooing no question about it, Sharpz machines arent set up the best from the factory I have found out, it is up to you to do the necessary to get the best from them, I had one rebuilt at Sharpz and it was shimmed wrong and had the wrong length springs on it, totally different machine now.

Still a massive learning curve for me.

Just a foot note, a good quality diamond tube is a must, I have tried loads of different ones and the ones I like are the CNC tubes and the Sabre tridents that ink sponge put me on to.

Cheers, i'll take a look at the tubes you mention for starters. Itching to get another piece started now!

marked 4 life said:

Just a foot note, a good quality diamond tube is a must, I have tried loads of different ones and the ones I like are the CNC tubes and the Sabre tridents that ink sponge put me on to.

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sabre tridents are wicked grips, i now use the sabre disposable cartridge grip with ez cartridges and use only one machine. its an fk iron AL13 exactor colour packer but at low voltages at around 3.8v it hits very soft even with a heavier arm bar. i have it set to a medium throw probably around 2mm and it pushes in lines great, can build up washes great and also puts the colour in great. this may seem odd to some but using the same machine does do one thing. it gets you well used to that machine and how it runs. at the speed its set it can do all 3 jobs and the rest is down to my technique, hand speed and how hard i push and depth ect. i prefer it this way personally from what i have been doing with multiple machines and its easier to set up ect and cheaper on grips needles and bagging and what not.

back to the needle issue, by using the same machine and slowly learning the exact feel for it, ive been able to have more needle hang and ride the needle as i can feel with my stretching hand what its doing in the skin. i know what vibration to feel for when its doing its thing and i feel its upped my game as i go in the minimum depth needed now causing less trauma and making my work more artistic. its the same with mags, with more hang you can really get into the tight spaces and see and feel exactly how far you needles are going in. it really is preference with all this stuff, its what ever works for you, at the end of the day if a shoe fits wear it i say.

Deviantdan16 said:

...at the end of the day if a shoe fits wear it i say.

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I seem to be coming round to this way of thinking, doing what works best for me and my customers.

I will stick with multiple machines though, as (I think) the CPS difference between lining and colour packing is a fair amount and i'm not sure volts can bridge the gap (not with coils at any rate). But if you have it working, good for you.

thats why i have it set in the middle somewhere.
i thought id try it and if anything my lines are going in better in them hard areas like back of the arm ect. i just slow down my hand speed a little or speed it up colour and blacks. at the end of the day thats all it is really, matching the cps to your hand speed.

Whippet what machine are you using to line with ?

And what machine where you using 20 years ago?

Deviantdan16 said:

sabre tridents are wicked grips, i now use the sabre disposable cartridge grip with ez cartridges and use only one machine. its an fk iron AL13 exactor colour packer but at low voltages at around 3.8v it hits very soft even with a heavier arm bar. i have it set to a medium throw probably around 2mm and it pushes in lines great, can build up washes great and also puts the colour in great. this may seem odd to some but using the same machine does do one thing. it gets you well used to that machine and how it runs. at the speed its set it can do all 3 jobs and the rest is down to my technique, hand speed and how hard i push and depth ect. i prefer it this way personally from what i have been doing with multiple machines and its easier to set up ect and cheaper on grips needles and bagging and what not.

back to the needle issue, by using the same machine and slowly learning the exact feel for it, ive been able to have more needle hang and ride the needle as i can feel with my stretching hand what its doing in the skin. i know what vibration to feel for when its doing its thing and i feel its upped my game as i go in the minimum depth needed now causing less trauma and making my work more artistic. its the same with mags, with more hang you can really get into the tight spaces and see and feel exactly how far you needles are going in. it really is preference with all this stuff, its what ever works for you, at the end of the day if a shoe fits wear it i say.

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Your using a coil to push carts and running it a 3.8v and wondering why your colour work is healing patchy?
Really

Ink sponge said:

Your using a coil to push carts and running it a 3.8v and wondering why your colour work is healing patchy?
Really

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Do you use any fk iron machines? They are renowned for being powerfull. It will push a 49 mag and it only has 1 n half coils. It runs at under 2 volts. I paid just over £400 for it and it will hit as hard as nearly any rotary. I can tell if a machine is hitting hard enough to pierce skin properly.
My downfalls are my technique il admit that. But dont tell me i dont know if a machine is capable of pushing a cartridge. Do some research and your find that quite a few people are using coils and cartridges. They even tell you on the wholesalers they are designed for coils and rotarys. Its not rocket science. With a short throw like i use you dont need as many volts. Plus if i turned that up to 6 volts if would ruin skin unless there was a 21 mag in it

Deviantdan16 said:

Do you use any fk iron machines? They are renowned for being powerfull. It will push a 49 mag and it only has 1 n half coils. It runs at under 2 volts. I paid just over £400 for it and it will hit as hard as nearly any rotary. I can tell if a machine is hitting hard enough to pierce skin properly.
My downfalls are my technique il admit that. But dont tell me i dont know if a machine is capable of pushing a cartridge. Do some research and your find that quite a few people are using coils and cartridges. They even tell you on the wholesalers they are designed for coils and rotarys. Its not rocket science. With a short throw like i use you dont need as many volts. Plus if i turned that up to 6 volts if would ruin skin unless there was a 21 mag in it

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Lol

Deviantdan16 said:

Do you use any fk iron machines?

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I had to laugh when I saw that, ink sponge had quite a collection of FKI machines.

What power supply are you using and is it accurate? I know all 4 of my power supplies read differently if tested with an accurate multi meter and the read out at display is not necessarily what you get at the machine when there is a machine attached to it.

Dan you need to stop and have a serious rethink about what you are doing. Without trying to sound rude your doing everything backwards and clearly have very little knowledge.
Fortunately there are people on this forum that will help you but you have to be prepared to listen.


Here is a fk iron in use. Run with a medium/long stroke ( you can tell by the sound ) using a 7 mag. Voltage wise run LOW at 7 to 7.5 volts. Look how fast the colours are going in with not a massive amount of stretch and the skin isn't being chewed up.

When i say short stroke i mean short for a colour packer. Not short in general. That hum is pretty much the same frequency tone i have mine running at faster if anything. If anything up untill now ive had mine running too slow. Having a quite a fast hand speed recently speeding it up has helped me a lot. And yes ive seen that video before.

marked 4 life said:

What power supply are you using and is it accurate? I know all 4 of my power supplies read differently if tested with an accurate multi meter and the read out at display is not necessarily what you get at the machine when there is a machine attached to it.

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Its a critical cx 1

The exact machine i use pushing cartridges. I wouldnt have just gone for it without researching first

Anyway.... i will be going rotary soon. I bought the grips and catridges about 2 weeks ago and im only using the coil untill it i get an fk spektra edge which should be soon. I do understand what your saying about the cartridges and i was sceptical myself. But it does work, and this machine has no problems pushing them. But i want the versatility of a rotary with give and choice of speed with the voltage so thats what im doing. But as i said pls dont tell me i cant out my thumb on an arm bar not know when a needles pushing too hard or bogging too much